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editor
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 Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: NEW! How to find a good CONDO lawyer |
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How to find a good condo lawyer:
Why you need legal counsel even BEFORE you buy:
| Quote: | Good Times
Magazine Subscription
Before You Go Condo ... do your research!
By Olev Edur
May, 2007
| Quote: | ... "You have to bear in mind that unlike a house, you can't maintain the value of your property by yourself," he says. "The condo corporation is responsible for the upkeep of the building, and you are responsible only for your unit.
Lifestyle issues can become the most contentious for people who aren't prepared for the change," says Warren (John Warren, a chartered accountant and partner at Adams Masin & Tilley LLP). "What you're going to be doing, in effect, is living in an apartment. There are noises from the neighbours, people play music, and so on. It's a form of communal living, and there are a whole series of compromises that must be made. You can't just do what you want."
..."It's a restrictive lifestyle," Warren says. "The condo bylaws, rules, and regulations can be onerous. There can be 60-70-80 pages of them, and most real estate lawyers won't even look at them, so you really want to talk to a lawyer who specializes in condos. You might have to pay him $2,000, but most people don't and then they're surprised at what they've bought into. It's being penny wise and pound foolish. (-- pgs. 57-60) |
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But how do I find a condo lawyer here when - unlike Ontario - B.C. has no specialist classifications?
| Quote: | Too true. Nor, unbelievably, does the local law school provide much training in condo law, which may explain why there are SO MANY real estate practice courses each year at the Continuing Legal Education Society (CLE). Our search of the terms, 'real estate practice' at the CLE site April 8/08 yielded no less than 176 hits!
The good news is if mouthpiece locates a gap in the strata minutes pre-purchase - and how could s/he not when there are virtually no reporting requirements for condos here in 'BILLYville - it should reduce price. How much depends on the gap. A strata corporation that submits to regular professional inspections and a well-conceived maintenance plan, that raises sufficient funds each year to anticipate expenses, will be much more valuable than the typical B.C. outfit, squandering the coffers on landscaping or new carpets for the lobby with no thought of next year's roof repair and no record of the last full inspection - if there ever was one.
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So how do I find a good condo mouthpiece?
| Quote: | The law society advises the public to get on the telephone treadmill at the local bar association. Frankly, we've never found that method especially useful. Either the lawyer doesn't return the call or s/he is unable for some reason to take the case.
Our preferred methods of obtaining counsel:
Find practitioners by searching various terms at the CLE site and make a list of those presenting on conflicts similar to yours. Our own search of the terms, 'condominium 2007,' yielded a whopping 144 hits April 8/08.
Or search terms, such as 'condominium and strata and council and leaky,' at the B.C. Courts Search Judgments database. Our search April 9/08 yielded 32 results. The names of counsel are listed on the first page of each judgment.
Once you've made a list, type in names at the law society's helpful Lawyer Look-up link.
Take your search a step further by checking out prospects' success rate at the B.C. Courts Search Judgments database. Simply type in atty's name in the Query line, maybe along with the term, 'condominium.' We got 10 hits when we searched 'condominium and John and Logan' April 9/08.
If atty's website indicates the firm handles condo/strata issues but you DON'T find atty listed at the courts site, ask prospect why. If atty balks, hang up! If s/he's reluctant to name a few cases in which s/he's acted for the plaintiff strata council or individual owner or isn't otherwise confident enough to convince you s/he's ready, willing and able to run your file, good riddance! There's no shortage of attys advertising expertise in strata issues.
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Won't I find a good condo lawyer listed among advertisers and columnists in various publications of the Condominium Homeowners Association (CHOA)?
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Not necessarily. We certainly didn't. CHOA does not appear to restrict advertisers or columnists - attorneys or builders - in any way, nor - perhaps more importantly - is it influenced by subscriber condo owners' complaints. Shortly after our negative experience with one of its advertisers, we provided CHOA with our account. Nothing changed. Not even a reply. Some advocacy, huh?
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Ask for a fee estimate:
| Quote: | Before calling prospects for a fee estimate, draft a one-page explanation of your problem, including dates, whether you have good records to support your claim, and the result you hope to achieve. For example,
'My strata council agreed in my absence to proceed with work without notifying owners or demonstrating that they've taken sufficient expert/professional advice. In addition, the contractor they've hired is the strata president's out-of-work brother-in-law, who seems to lack relevant qualifications. He's listed as a non-practising engineer whatever that means. What does that mean? I have a record of repeated requests I've made to council for information. What remedies, if any, do I have against my crazy neighbors, who seem utterly uninterested in protecting our collective investment?'
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I've made a list and read a few cases. How come no one seems to want the job? I'm facing a $65k-special assessment and mouthpiece says, 'You don't really want to fight with your neighbors.' Yes, I DO and I want to win!
| Quote: | One of the biggest problems attys face with condo law is the central conflict between an individual owner and the Communistic fiction of the strata corporation as a whole to whom 'good faith' - whatever that might be - is owed by all members. Most of Eastern Europe with its superior intellect and education is now well satisfied that Communism failed, but B.C. 'BILLIES gaze only at their navels in that typical wacky, weed-wonderful, west coast way. Nor does the legislation offer much guidance in the way of proper conduct, reporting requirements or penalties for various breaches/failures. Unfortunately, our fraud-friendly Strata Property Act even fails to address in any meaningful way what is probably the most common condo issue among owners - bullying - between members of the strata council and between owners. Not surprisingly, perhaps, many attys are reluctant to take these cases.
At the end of the day, unless there are facts to support a claim of at least $50k, it's not cost-effective to sue. Often, the best alternative is to represent yourself at Small Claims Court or, in a growing number of cases, the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal. A prospective atty on your list should at least be able to tell you which might be the preferred venue. S/he might also agree to assist you with certain small claims filings and other how-tos - for a price, of course. |
| Quote: | More about epidemic strata bullying and how to fight back.
If, like so many of our visitors, you have difficulty obtaining counsel, PLEASE click here to tell the B.C. Law Society, the lawyers' governing body, that there aren't enough qualified condo lawyers in B.C.
Tell them, too, how you feel about lawyer-realtors. Realtors get in trouble representing both buyer and seller without disclosing the relationship, yet attys, who are privy to considerably more privileged business information, are free to sell you a property and advise you on its sale. How does such an arrangement protect the public interest? If you want a clearer line between privileged attys and the real estate industry, tell the Benchers!
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Don't stop there!
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1280#1280
Last edited by editor on Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:34 am; edited 38 times in total |
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editor
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Posts: 878
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| Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Won't I find a good condo lawyer listed among advertisers and columnists in various publications of the Condominium Homeowners Association (CHOA)?
| Quote: |
Not necessarily. We certainly didn't. CHOA does not appear to restrict advertisers or columnists - attorneys or builders - in any way, nor - perhaps more importantly - is it influenced by subscriber condo owners' complaints. Shortly after our experience with one of its advertisers, we apprised the organization of the facts. Nothing changed. Not even a reply. Some advocacy, huh?
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Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1281#1281 |
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editor
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:30 am Post subject: |
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On the value of obtaining pre-sale legal advice: Even a seasoned city councillor got fleeced!
Burnaby News Leader
Condo owners asked to pay up
By Michael McQuillan
Nov. 8/07
| Quote: | The developer of the San Marino condominium building is telling owners they’ll have to pay a hefty monthly strata fee or walk away from their units. Just two weeks before the opening of the eight-storey San Marino building in Sapperton, DCP Developments (Sapperton) Ltd. added an estimated $200 to $350 strata fee to each condo. The owners were told to agree to the fees or have their purchase agreements cancelled.
The increased fees were needed to make the project a reality, says the developer. Increased construction costs and materials, extra regulatory fees and poor weather have combined to inflate the cost of the building, said Paul John, a director with DCP Developments. In hindsight, he said, the company should not have pre-sold the condos. “We never thought we couldn’t deliver at the price we sold them at.” (emphasis added)
Many of the owners in the 106-unit building made down payments on the condos two years ago as part of the pre-sale.
Condo owner Lorrie Williams said she didn’t read the purchase agreement, which allows the developer to add the strata fee. In hindsight, the New Westminster councillor says she should have vetted the agreement through her lawyer. (emphasis added)
“I’m dismayed that a contract doesn’t seem to be a contract anymore,” she said. “You have to read the fine print.” Williams has agreed to pay the extra strata fees, which is a leasing fee covering building infrastructure such as mailboxes, the elevator and fixtures. The leasee is the developer.
Normally such infrastructure is a fixed cost and is part of the price for each condo.
“If it wasn’t for my mom, I would walk away from this,” said Williams, who bought the unit so she could have her aging mother close to her home. Williams realizes the developer needs more money to pay for escalating construction costs. “But this took us all by surprise. We should have known about this before—a year ago.”
She considers herself lucky because she can afford the added costs. But Williams worries about those who can barely afford to pay their condo mortgages.
“For those having to scrape together the money to pay for the mortgage, this will probably put them over the edge. They’ll have to walk away.”
Those purchasing units will have difficulties selling them because of the high strata fee, said New Westminster MLA Chuck Puchmayr. Along with NDP housing critic Diane Thorne, Puchmayr plans to speak about the San Marino situation in the Legislature, recommending changes to protect consumers. “Developers would have to be bonded to make sure they can deliver at the cost they promised. There’s no way consumers should have to take all of the risk,” Puchmayr said.
San Marino owners choosing to opt out of the purchase agreement will be refunded their 10 per cent deposit, plus two years of bank interest.
The San Marino, at 411 East Columbia Street, went on sale two years ago. It is expected to be granted an occupancy permit this week. The developer said there is a positive side to the San Marino opening, even though owners are having to pay the extra fees. “The owners have already made a lot of money—$150,000 to $200,000,” said John referring to the most recent assessed values. |
San Marino condominium listed among Projects on the Go Oct. 1/07:
| Quote: | Project Description:
102 residential units- 8 storeys
fronting Columbia Street East and 4
storeys at the rear, 4,236 sq ft. at
grade commercial fronting Columbia
Street East; Doug Massie, Doug
Massie Architect (listed as Douglas L. Massie,
603 - 1200 W. 73rd Avenue,
Vancouver, BC
Tel:(604) 264-1496
Profile:
Website:
Description:
at FindBCWood.com); DCP Developments (Sapperton) Ltd.
Project address:
411 Columbia Street
East (formerly 309/311
Knox Street & 411/415
Columbia Street East) -
The San Marino
Estimated project cost: $11,000,000 |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1462#1462
Last edited by editor on Sat Feb 07, 2009 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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editor
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:44 am Post subject: |
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101 Streetsmart Condo Buying Tips for Canadians
Hardcover
By Douglas Gray
| Quote: | There is an analogy early in this book that could chill the heart of anyone attracted by the free-and-easy image of condominium life portrayed in marketing brochures: When you buy a condo, you submit to a fourth level of government, author Douglas Gray warns.
...It will be difficult to assess the quality of the construction of the whole building, but you will have to help pay to maintain and fix it, and will share the liability for things that go wrong.
... The condominium legislation of each province is the basic document that sets out the procedural requirements for the operation of condomiums. It is supplemented by other legal documents specific to each development, such as the project document, bylaws and rules and regulations, Mr. Gray writes.
"If you are serious about buying a condo, it is imperative that you obtain copies of these documents and others, as well as the condominium legislation, before you finalize your purchase. In most cases, people don't review this material thoroughly and understand it before purchasing."
Not surprisingly, the author urges readers to sit down with a lawyer and go through all of these documents before signing anything. (emphasis added) Because of the complexity of condo regulations, they will have to pay a higher fee than if buying a house. (From A condo buy comes with limits and obligations, a book review by Jane Gadd in the Globe and Mail June 2/06, pgs. S4 and S6) |
Our review:
| Quote: | So far, we're pleased to see another advocate recommending legal advice PRIOR TO purchase; however, we find the article at the website on the pros and cons of condo living more than a little remiss for:
(a) making only a passing reference to the latent (hidden) defects typified by leaky condo construction, which implies wrongly that the crisis is past. It's not.
(b) In addition, B.C.'s legislation means that even smart condo owners seeking to protect their investment have to beg and plead with strata councils to obtain proper professional inspection and maintenance strategies. The author, who describes himself as a Vancouver former real estate lawyer, should know this and provide a better heads-up. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1463#1463 |
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editor
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Posts: 878
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| Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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... Maybe get an Ontario attorney:
Vancouver Magazine
Rough Housing
The next big shelter crisis hits the 'burbs. Is it as bad as the Leaky Condo debacle? Or worse?
By Frank O'Brien
March, 2004
| Quote: | From the outside, Cloverdale, B.C. looks like another Vancouver suburb riding the upswing of a robust housing market. Which is true enough, unless you happen to be out for a drive with Gary Friend, a third generation Fraser Valley homebuilder. Friend points out the evidence of a different wave, one he fears could be the ruin of his industry: black-market houses. "Everyone knows what is going on," he says, "but nobody can do anything about it."
He's talking about hundreds of detached houses built in suburban Greater Vancouver this year - and thousands since the leaky condo crisis crested five years ago - that are being erected by non-licensed contractors who offer no warranty protection, no worker compensation, no guarantees at all. Should you buy one of these "owner-built" houses and find that something is wrong with it, your only hope will be an expensive court docket assigned to a sceptical prosecutor. (And that's if your insurance isn't made void and your mortgage isn't called in). Your other option, and a much more popular choice: flip the place to an unsuspecting buyer and flee as far away from the fallout as possible.
What it all adds up to, according to Friend and other observers, is a kind of Leaky Condo II for big suburban houses. If that prediction sounds alarmist, what is certain, says Bob Maling, the top cop in British Columbia's Homeowner Protection Office, is that there's "a gapping loophole" in the provincial legislation. And some builders are taking full advantage.
... [size 18]What's worse is that Maling admits his office - whose motto is "restoring confidence" - has had near zero success in stopping the abusers. In fact, not a single illegal builder has been convicted in five years even though about 10,000 owner-built houses have been identified[/size]. A six-month statute of limitations from when the house is occupied is hamstringing Maling and his 34-member staff. Meanwhile it's easy to see the incentive in exploiting the loophole. The math shows that buying and selling an owner-built house in today's real estate market is like hitting the lotto - again and again... Case study: the HPO tracked one house where the owner-builder dodged a cool $120,000 in [various registration and licensing] fees and taxes. Plus he made money on the sale of the house. And then he walked away.
... In B.C. home builder warranty cases must go to Crown Counsel, which means there has to be a fairly solid case for conviction. This differs from Ontario, where legislation allows the Ontario New Home Warranty Program to lay charges and prosecute cases without Crown Counsel being involved. A Lindsay, Ontario builder caught without warranty coverage was recently sentenced to six months in jail on each of two counts. In B.C. all but one of the cases Mailing and his team have presented to Crown Counsel have quietly died.
... What about the Maple Ridge homebuyers who, upon hiring Ed Witzke - a veteran building inspector among the first to blow the whistle on leaky condos a decade ago - discovered that workers had actually defecated between the wall studs before they put the Gyprock up? . (Says Witzke, "The house stank to high heaven, and it had mechanical and electrical problems as well.") They did what most end up forced to do: look after the repairs and costs themselves. (emphasis added) (-- pgs. 25-27) |
| Quote: | | But when pricey licensing and mandatory warranty rules kicked in for contractors, the suburbs appeared to be filled with an inordinate number of handymen. The number of owner-built houses soared, according to Maling, a former Ontario warranty provider and now acting chief executive officer of the HPO. This year, he said, they will represent at least 35 per cent of the 12,000 new houses built in the province. In parts of Surrey, it is closer to 50 percent; the bulk of the worst examples are in the Fraser Valley and the Lower Mainland, according to HPO officials. (-- p. 26) |
| Quote: | So much for the CBC Radio Early Edition not-so-smart 'Get Smart' series of March, 2006, which includes a report by Salma Nurmohamed asserting that Valley homes are now in the clear of leaky condo issues.
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http://www.bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1465#1465 |
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