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editor
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 Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: HOW TO BUY a condo and avoid the LEAKERS |
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Our top six recommendations for prospective condo buyers:
Any advice on buying a condo and how to avoid buying a leaker?
| Quote: | From: Bella Coked
To: editor@bccondos.ca
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:45 PM
I wonder if you could advise me where I can get information I need in order to purchase a condo in the correct manner. I need to have it checked in order to be sure I don't end up with a leaky condo. In your experience, what kind of condos should I stay away from and what years? I'd appreciate any information you can share with me.
Thank you,
Bella Coked |
Our reply to the classic question:
| Quote: | From: editor
To: Bella Coked
Cc: editor@bccondos.ca
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 11:47 AM
Subject: Our Six Best Pracitce Tips for Condo Buyers
Hello Bella,
Thank you for writing. Here are the six best practice tips we've come up with for condo buyers (also available way-y-y down on our homepage):
I’ve read CMHC’s somewhat cautionary Condominium Buyers’ Guide and I still want to buy a condo. What other information might assist me?
1. Go to one of the two law libraries, which are both open to the public, and ask for the Continuing Legal Education Society series on leaky condos. Type in the terms, 'leaky condo' at the CLE for a cursory view of titles. (We got a total of 119 hits Jan. 6/06) These will give you some idea of the risk a buyer undertakes in a B.C. condo purchase. Basically, reverse engineer our proposal for condo law reform in B.C. and make your offer accordingly. Ours is not a scheme that protects the equity of long-term investors.
2. Review disclosure statements and strata records – minutes from council meetings as well as correspondence – with a condo lawyer before you make an offer. To find a lawyer with construction and condo expertise, go to the B.C. Law Society’s website or better still, search 'leaky condo' at the Courts of B.C. Search Judgments database and make a note of the names of counsel, which are listed at the top of each judgment hit. More about finding a good condo lawyer here.
3. It is vitally important for the buyer to obtain a full, accurate account of the strata’s current state of repair and predicted service life, including maintenance obligations on which monthly maintenance fees should be based. If there is any question regarding the documentation of the building’s construction or performance, consult with your lawyer about obtaining an inspection by a qualified professional. Inadequate privately-contracted inspections have meant disaster for many B.C. purchasers. For more information on inspections, click on the British Columbia Institute of Property Inspectors (BCIPI) here, on CMHC's OCCUPATIONAL STANDARDS, PROFESSIONAL HOME/PROPERTY INSPECTOR guide of May, 2001 and on Hiring a Home Inspector. Consider the finding in Nancy Bain's 2002-3 report, Re-sale of leaky condos: did the buyer know?:
Professional Property Inspections
This tool was used the least. Of the 40 cases, 29 did not
have a property inspection, and none of the participants
cited cost as the reason for not having one. It was found
that the extent to which the exterior of a building is
inspected varies greatly; the checklist format of the
report sometimes buried significant information; and
written comments by an inspector may appear benign
but closer examination by a person knowledgeable about
building envelope failure would reveal ominous warnings
couched in soft language. Only one inspection report
gave warnings in plain, simple language, which ensured the
buyer understood the risk involved in purchasing. In eight
cases, the reports should have caused alarm but they
failed to do so.
4. Look through the strata corporation documents for evidence of technical building audits and reserve fund studies as well as the helpful maintenance/inspection guide proferred by an especially astute California attorney. Does your complex have a professionally designed and well funded maintenance and repair plan firmly in place? How often are professional inspections conducted at all areas of the property – common, limited common and in-suite? How long has this been the practice? What is the procedure for reporting damage? Has it been followed? If there are bylaws, rules and procedures you like at the complex, how are they enforced and how easy or difficult would it be to change any of them? Answers to these questions may reveal hidden costs that should be factored into your offer.
5. Look up your strata corporation, the developer, architect, builders, realtors and property management firm at the Courts of British Columbia website. Click on Search Judgments, type in names and study the litigation history of your complex and its players. Listings here may also reveal hidden costs that should be factored into your offer.
6. To find out how difficult it is to get out of bad deal, type in ‘caveat emptor’ at the Courts of British Columbia Search Judgments database and read the sad stories of construction defects discovered too late. On Aug. 6/04, we got 25 hits for the year 2004. When we checked again Jan. 8/06, we got 33 hits in 2004 and a total of 27 in 2005.
Hope that helps.
Ed. |
Update 2009:
| Quote: | | Editor's Note: We now advise visitors to replace the untrawlable though still publicly-funded B.C. Courts website with CanLII. When we searched the terms, 'leaky condo' between Jan. 1/08 and July 28/09, we got 13 hits. A cursory review of each reveals in gory detail the huge price a failed housing economy exacts on consumers. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=748#748
Last edited by editor on Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:42 am; edited 20 times in total |
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editor
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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101 Streetsmart Condo Buying Tips for Canadians
Hardcover
By Douglas Gray
| Quote: | There is an analogy early in this book that could chill the heart of anyone attracted by the free-and-easy image of condominium life portrayed in marketing brochures: When you buy a condo, you submit to a fourth level of government, author Douglas Gray warns.
...It will be difficult to assess the quality of the construction of the whole building, but you will have to help pay to maintain and fix it, and will share the liability for things that go wrong.
... The condominium legislation of each province is the basic document that sets out the procedural requirements for the operation of condomiums. It is supplemented by other legal documents specific to each development, such as the project document, bylaws and rules and regulations, Mr. Gray writes.
"If you are serious about buying a condo, it is imperative that you obtain copies of these documents and others, as well as the condominium legislation, before you finalize your purchase. In most cases, people don't review this material thoroughly and understand it before purchasing."
Not surprisingly, the author urges readers to sit down with a lawyer and go through all of these documents before signing anything. (emphasis added) Because of the complexity of condo regulations, they will have to pay a higher fee than if buying a house. (From A condo buy comes with limits and obligations, a book review by Jane Gadd in the Globe and Mail June 2/06, pgs. S4 and S6) |
Our review:
| Quote: | So far, we're pleased to see another advocate recommending legal advice PRIOR TO purchase; however, we find the article at the website on the pros and cons of condo living more than a little remiss for:
(a) making only a passing reference to the latent (hidden) defects typified by leaky condo construction, which implies wrongly that the crisis is past. It's not.
(b) In addition, B.C.'s legislation means that even smart condo owners seeking to protect their investment have to beg and plead with strata councils to obtain proper professional inspection and maintenance strategies. The author, who describes himself as a Vancouver former real estate lawyer, should know this and provide a better heads-up. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=844#844
Last edited by editor on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:46 am; edited 7 times in total |
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editor
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Posts: 878
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| Posted: Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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'I read Dextras's Leaky Condo Boondoggle book - now what?!"
| Quote: | From: Chuck Puddleduck
To: <editor>
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 10:23 PM
Subject: BC Condos Information Request
Hello --
I'm thinking about buying a condo in Richmond. I've been studying up on the situation -- got Dextras's book out of the library, and that led me to the http://www.bccondos.ca website.
Thank you for putting up the links into the CMHC site and its technical reports.
Right now, I'm feeling that my safest bet is an old, wood-sided condo (say, 1975). If it were going to leak, it would have leaked by now. If Dextras is right, the underlying problem is with post-oil-crisis "low air leakage" construction -- the older the building, the less likely to have problems.
I have two fairly specific needs, and you might be able to help with them.
1. I'm looking for a building inspector with a good nose for problems, without any conflicts of interest. Do you have any ideas about finding one?
2. I'm looking for an expert to read strata minutes, and tell me whether there are any faint "yellow flags" that I would have missed myself. The CMHC says that those people exist in Alberta, but not in BC. A pity.
Thanks again for keeping the site up and running. There's not much activity, but it is alive, unlike "myleakycondo.com". I too have tried to contact Balderson, and not succeeded.
With hope for a dry home --
Chuck Puddleduck |
Our reply:
| Quote: | From: "editor" <editor>
To: Chuck Puddleduck
Cc: "editor" <editor>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: BC Condos Information Request
Hello Condo Seekers,
Good for you for doing your homework! Now keep going! Follow our guidelines at Watchdog Forum on how to avoid a leaker or at least come up with an offer based on the quality of the strata corporation's maintenance and repair record. Approach your condo purchase as if your condo will shortly evidence leaks. How much is in the war chest right now today for major repairs and how is that fund being managed? (More about how to make this calculation at Condo Law FAQs). If the seller represents the condo is NOT a leaker, ask when the last complete inspection (including ALL the common property) was conducted. How about the time before that? How do these dates compare with the long-term maintenance plan the building designer provided at the completion of construction? If there is no maintenance plan and no one has any idea who the building designer was, cut the price anywhere from half to two-thirds.
Don't know if we agree with your comments about wood-frame housing. The old rectangles held up but more complex multi-family wood-frame designs haven't. And now B.C. 'BILLIES want us to believe they're sufficiently competent to put rooftop gardens on them! Give us break. While we don't know him personally, we are big fans of Mike Holmes. You might be interested in his comments recently on housing construction materials in the Globe and Mail, which we've posted at Condo Life Cycles.
About finding a lawyer: If after following our tips at the above links you have any trouble locating counsel willing to examine condo documents prior to purchase, PLEASE WRITE BACK ASAP so that we can inform the local bar association. Continuing Legal Education Society (CLE) hosts a battery of courses each year for lawyers on real estate practice much of which involves leaky condo litigation.
If we find from consumers that there is insufficient weight given to reading strata minutes prior to purchase, we'll certainly advise the law society accordingly! That's a promise.
About building inspectors: Even the best building inspector cannot get inside EACH unit to test for water ingress. S/he may not even be able to check out the parkade, which is often the source of problems. S/he also has no idea how the corporation has been handling maintenance/repairs and no idea whether the building designer has a lengthy history of leaky condo litigation regarding buildings similar to yours. This means two things: 1. a building inspection no matter how professional is not at all complete, and 2. if, in spite of these limitations, the inspector sees problems, you can probably take it pretty seriously. We didn't to our peril.
Best of luck,
Ed. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1006#1006
Last edited by editor on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:46 am; edited 5 times in total |
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editor
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Even a seasoned city councillor got fleeced!
Burnaby News Leader
Condo owners asked to pay up
By Michael McQuillan
Nov. 8/07
| Quote: | The developer of the San Marino condominium building is telling owners they’ll have to pay a hefty monthly strata fee or walk away from their units. Just two weeks before the opening of the eight-storey San Marino building in Sapperton, DCP Developments (Sapperton) Ltd. added an estimated $200 to $350 strata fee to each condo. The owners were told to agree to the fees or have their purchase agreements cancelled.
The increased fees were needed to make the project a reality, says the developer. Increased construction costs and materials, extra regulatory fees and poor weather have combined to inflate the cost of the building, said Paul John, a director with DCP Developments. In hindsight, he said, the company should not have pre-sold the condos. “We never thought we couldn’t deliver at the price we sold them at.” (emphasis added)
Many of the owners in the 106-unit building made down payments on the condos two years ago as part of the pre-sale.
Condo owner Lorrie Williams said she didn’t read the purchase agreement, which allows the developer to add the strata fee. In hindsight, the New Westminster councillor says she should have vetted the agreement through her lawyer. (emphasis added)
“I’m dismayed that a contract doesn’t seem to be a contract anymore,” she said. “You have to read the fine print.” Williams has agreed to pay the extra strata fees, which is a leasing fee covering building infrastructure such as mailboxes, the elevator and fixtures. The leasee is the developer.
Normally such infrastructure is a fixed cost and is part of the price for each condo.
“If it wasn’t for my mom, I would walk away from this,” said Williams, who bought the unit so she could have her aging mother close to her home. Williams realizes the developer needs more money to pay for escalating construction costs. “But this took us all by surprise. We should have known about this before—a year ago.”
She considers herself lucky because she can afford the added costs. But Williams worries about those who can barely afford to pay their condo mortgages.
“For those having to scrape together the money to pay for the mortgage, this will probably put them over the edge. They’ll have to walk away.”
Those purchasing units will have difficulties selling them because of the high strata fee, said New Westminster MLA Chuck Puchmayr. Along with NDP housing critic Diane Thorne, Puchmayr plans to speak about the San Marino situation in the Legislature, recommending changes to protect consumers. “Developers would have to be bonded to make sure they can deliver at the cost they promised. There’s no way consumers should have to take all of the risk,” Puchmayr said.
San Marino owners choosing to opt out of the purchase agreement will be refunded their 10 per cent deposit, plus two years of bank interest.
The San Marino, at 411 East Columbia Street, went on sale two years ago. It is expected to be granted an occupancy permit this week. The developer said there is a positive side to the San Marino opening, even though owners are having to pay the extra fees. “The owners have already made a lot of money—$150,000 to $200,000,” said John referring to the most recent assessed values. |
San Marino condominium listed among Projects on the Go Oct. 1/07:
| Quote: | Project Description:
102 residential units- 8 storeys
fronting Columbia Street East and 4
storeys at the rear, 4,236 sq ft. at
grade commercial fronting Columbia
Street East; Doug Massie, Doug
Massie Architect (listed as Douglas L. Massie,
603 - 1200 W. 73rd Avenue,
Vancouver, BC
Tel:(604) 264-1496
Profile:
Website:
Description:
at FindBCWood.com); DCP Developments (Sapperton) Ltd.
Project address:
411 Columbia Street
East (formerly 309/311
Knox Street & 411/415
Columbia Street East) -
The San Marino
Estimated project cost: $11,000,000 |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1099#1099
Last edited by editor on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:36 am; edited 5 times in total |
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editor
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Posts: 878
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Thinking of buying a five-year-old condo - do highrises leak?
| Quote: | From: Visitor Wayne Waddleford
To: editor@bccondos.ca
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 11:21 PM
Subject: Leaky condo questions
Dear Ed,
Your website is so detailed. I like it very much.
I was once a tenant at 7051 Blundell Road. I used to live there several years ago. It is so sad that the old apartment had the leaking problem again. In 1994, my previous landlord told me that he had paid the management around CAD$3,0000 in repairs.
I'm now thinking of buying a five-year-old condo. There is something I need to ask. I hope you can give me some opinions.
Do highrise have the leaking problems, too ?
Will the condo leak again after the repair?
Or, is there is no guarantee the condo will not leak again after repair?
If the condo was leaking, and the mold wasn't removed properly or completely, what's the risk of harm?
How might buyers determine a condo's leak history? Is there, for instance, a public authority tracking either leakers or their experimental repair efforts? I know that strata corporations are required to keep certain records pertaining to the complex's construction, ownership and maintenance for several years. How do I know the history before record-keeping begins?
Thank you very much. |
Our response:
| Quote: | From: editor
To: Visitor Waddles
Cc: editor
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Leaky condo questions
Hi Waddles,
Use the material collected at Maintenance and Inspections at our Condo Life Cycles forum as a checklist to assess the risk of building failure at each condo complex of interest. What you're looking for is a fully-documented close relationship between the building designer/developer and subsequent purchasers (strata council representing owners). Has the building designer indeed provided council with a quality maintenance manual and - just as important - has strata corporation demonstrated in all relevant documents full compliance with the plan? What's the next big expense anticipated and what steps has the corporation taken to raise funds? How solid is the corporation's record in creating and enforcing bylaws? If one or more of the bylaws are unreasonable, in your view, how difficult would it be (how many votes required) to overturn them?
Any gaps in the strata records or the relationship between building designer/developer wildly increase the risk of building failure and the possibility of heavy repair/litigation expenses and should therefore factor into price accordingly. Pay no attention to real estate boosterism practised here shamelessly by corporate media parading as journalism. Reality is that people are getting stuck EVERY DAY with leakers of every age and NO, there is still NO PUBLIC AUTHORITY tracking either leaky condos or what are consequently the repair experiments, which are obviously equally risky.
More on a few CMHC case studies of repairs with mixed results listed at our Condo Links forum. Note that the case studies include examples of both low- and highrise repairs. Yup, highrises leak, too. It takes longer to show but the results may be even more devastating, according to a report from the late '90s. (See Leaky Condos, Why the Technology Didn’t Work by David Ricketts, P. Eng. at RDH Group, in the March, 1999 issue of Innovation). You can see a few examples of leaky highrises in photos at our Under Tarps forum.
See Oak Street, Vancouver's Boulevard of Broken Dreams.
The word about toxic mold is that litigation in that area of law is expanding and for exactly the reasons you describe. Go to our Toxic Mold forum and click on a few of the 'moisture problem' links listed along with notice of an upcoming legal seminar on mold Feb. 13/08. As you can see from the seminar, top dog attorneys representing the construction industry are putting their heads together to come up with ways to limit their clients' liability for the injury their shoddy, thoughtless work causes subsequent purchaser you. And with no penalty for creating the conditions that cause toxic mold, building practices are unlikely to change. Business as usual in the 'red-hot' real estate market, in other words.
Our three-part solution to the leaky condo debacle
Frankly, until we see:
- changes to condo governance legislation guiding strata councils in the how-tos of this unique type of corporate management while at the same time increasing exponentially the strata council's duty of care to the corporation to implement those guidelines
AND
- a fully transparent leaky condo/leaky condo repair experiment tracking process
AND
- very real penalties for building designers/developers who force subsequent purchasers to go to court for reimbursement of repair costs because they failed to follow the performance of their miserable work and to react to problems in a timely manner,
we are hard-pressed to recommend condo ownership in this province.
Quite simply, leakers are bad for the economy AND the environment AND they make us very, very sick at astonishing rates. We cannot understand why the provincial government continues to facilitate their proliferation. We call it B.C.'s new failed housing economy - Finance Minister Carole Taylor's trade-off of consumers in favor of the real estate pump and grind.
Hope that answers your questions. Good luck with the market. You'll need it.
Ed. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1231#1231 |
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editor
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Posts: 878
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| Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Any advice for B.C. condo market beginners?
| Quote: | From: Jo Beem
To: editor@bccondos.ca
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 5:28 PM
Subject: from Richmond, BC
Hi,
My name is Jo Beem from Richmond, BC.
My wife and I are in the market for a condo here in the Lower Mainland (we prefer Richmond or North Van) and are wondering if you could offer any advice and/or suggestions with regards to how we might even begin the research process. We are total beginners as this will be our first place and have not the slightest clue as to what the trends are regarding the market, leaky condo problems, etc.
Our realtor (whose priority it is to make a few buck off us), is trying to convince us that prices will not drop significantly over the next while. I have only heard the opposite and increasingly, as I ask around, I am discouraged from buying a condo...perhaps a small townhouse?
Any advice and/or feedback would be most appreciated.
Thank you.
Regards,
Jo Beem |
Our reply:
| Quote: | From: editor
To: Jo Beem
Cc: editor
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: from Richmond, BC
Hello Jo Beem,
Welcome to B.C. 'BILLYville, home to the booming failed housing economy, which employs legions of marginally skilled laborers. Here's an annotated view of how condo ownership works in B.C. - http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1379#1379. Scroll through and click on the links. It's long but it's a pretty complete snapshot of the sucker-punch condo ownership is for those buyers who intend to live in the unit among other inexpert owners, who have virtually no reporting requirements, which in turn renders most pre-sale documents such as strata council minutes utterless meaningless.
However, if somehow, against all odds, a strata corporation has proof of having fully implemented a frequent professional inspection and maintenance program, preferably one designed by the actual architect, AND if that same architect still visits the premises regularly to check on building performance as you might expect from a responsible professional esp in the wake of so many building failures, then bring the evidence to an atty BEFORE YOU MAKE AN OFFER as per http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=372 for some gap analysis - questions still remaining that will drive the price down.
Without access to the building designer's letters of assurance and/or a technical building audit, a professional building inspection prior to purchase will be largely a waste of money. What if your unit hasn't started leaking yet but a neighbor's has only neighbor wants to sell and hasn't told anyone, nor has a regular inspection program revealed it? Neither you nor your inspector has authority to inspect ALL premises even tho you'll be partly responsible for just about all repairs that might be required. Defects patent and latent are easy as pie to conceal in such a scheme, as you can imagine. There is rarely any penalty in B.C. for what other common law jurisdictions would call criminal fraud. So enter the condo market as if you're going to war. Prepare for the worst-case scenario.
Good luck,
Ed. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1381#1381 |
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editor
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Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 878
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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... It's REALLY as bad all that?
| Quote: | From: The Beemster
To: editor
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2008 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: from Richmond, BC
Dear Editor,
Thank you so very much for this information. You have just made my wife and I think twice about choosing a condo over a townhouse...for affordability more than anything else.
I'll be sure to do all the possible background checks that I can and get other professionals do what I can't do on my own.
As we begin our search, I hope you don't mind if I seek your counsel should I need to.
Believe me, I had no idea that things were this bad regarding BC condos.
Thanks again.
Jo |
Our reply - yes, it IS that bad!
| Quote: | From: editor
To: Beemster Jo
Cc: editor
Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: from Richmond, BC
It IS this bad. If latent (hidden) defects in design and construction don't appear to be at issue at each strata corporation (highly unlikely, in our experience), condo governance will be. And if there is any kind of problem requiring repair, you have to negotiate the fix with your neighbors, many of whom will be disinclined to spend money on essential expert advice. You will not even be able to compel neighbors to follow proper maintenance and inspection procedures provided by the building or repair/reconstruction designers in the rare event the complex has such a thing! Owners forced to lobby the corporation for adherence to such things are frequently branded as trouble makers and removed from council. There is currently NO protection in the condo legislative scheme from strata bullying, which is RAMPANT! So, again, even if you find atty willing to peruse the strata council minutes and other strata documents pre-sale for gaps, the reporting requirements for strata corporations are so low that they will quite likely reveal nothing about the true state of either construction or conflicts among owners. Indeed, even at many brand new constructions, owners begin occupancy locked in battle with developers over 'deficiency' issues and repairs. (More on deficiency repairs).
The residential tenancy relationship, on the other hand, means landlord can be legally compelled to provide a habitable living space and, to facilitate this, there are currently TWO offices on the Lower Mainland staffed with excellent, informed public servants, who are pleased to provide helpful information and assistance by e-mail, phone and in person in a timely manner - quite often same day service. You may not own your property at the end of a tenancy but your money will not be locked up tight in a leaky, moldy property necessarily managed by other inexpert consumers often with competing interests that create, as you can imagine, an endless variety of expensive conflicts. In many if not most cases, you have to live through at least one major repair involving inconvenience as well as a variety of health risks to recover your loss. Because real estate is so precious and sought after here, investors usually make out like bandits. The luckiest of the rest break about even. Many declare bankruptcy.
In now our seventh year of operation, neither the construction industry nor the provincial govt has yet undertaken ANY effort to track epidemic housing failure here nor the costly repair/reconstruction experiments, the latter of which are also often problematic despite a baseless prevailing view that a repaired condo is as sound as a brand new supposedly defect-free one. Where is the hard evidence to support such a claim? We know of complexes that have undergone repeated major repairs each time with the claim of 'new, improved building technologies.' Nor has the provincial govt made ANY effort to add ANY consumer protections to our fraud-friendly condo legislation. Again, B.C. trails like a backwater after more enlightened jurisdictions like Ontario and Alberta, which require stratas to undergo professional reserve fund studies at regular intervals (see http://www.bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?t=73).
Yes, by all means, more questions and comments gratefully received.
Ed. |
Link to this entry
http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1382#1382
Last edited by editor on Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:40 am; edited 2 times in total |
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editor
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Posts: 878
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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What steps are involved in condo buyer's 'due diligence'?
| Quote: | From: Jo Beemster
To: editor
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 2:19 PM
Subject: from Richmond, BC
Dear Editor,
Thank you again for the much needed information, especially considering that Richmond, I have recently learned, is one of the worst "condo places" in the Lower Mainland.
We'll follow your steps throughout the entire process and will surely seek your advice/suggestions as things proceed.
BTW, do townhomes generally avoid these building-type horrors?
Thanks again for all your input and I'm sure we'll be in touch soon.
Best regards,
Beemster Jo - Richmond, BC |
Our reply:
| Quote: | From: editor
To: Beemster Jo
Cc: editor
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 3:02 PM
Subject: from Richmond, BC
Not even new single-family homes are immune to the ravages of B.C. 'BILLY builders, it seems . See esp the article from Vancouver magazine, Rough Housing below.The reality is that if you can't afford an old but well-kept single-family like the ones in Dunbar and Kits, you'll likely fall prey to defective construction. While multi-unit housing, including townhouses AND highrises, has failed most noticeably, the problem is everywhere. Whether you're in a townhouse or a highrise, if it's a condominium (owned communally), you'll probably end up with both defective construction AND a condo governance nightmare - even if the complex is managed by an experienced outfit of good repute. Strata mgrs must almost always submit problems AND suggested fixes to the strata council for ultimate decision-making.
At the end of the day, condos are good for investors who are able to rent their units and/or flip them according to the market. The rest of us enjoy FAR superior accommodation and consumer protection as renters. It's no surprise that multi-unit rentals like these http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=801#801 are fine. Landlord, unlike condo owner, doesn't have to convince anyone else that his maintenance/repair plan is sound as long the premises are reasonably habitable. |
What's to know about building inspections?
| Quote: | From: Jo Beemster
To: editor
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: from Richmond, BC
Dear Editor,
Again, thank you kindly for your very informative response.
Just briefly:
My wife and I have begun our search for a small townhouse rather than a condo but if we can't find anything in our price range, then we're still open to the condo idea but thanks to you, we'll be cautious about the buildings we look at.
My question to you is; would you mind telling me who, where I would go to to get a building inspected (properly) and how much this would actually cost us since it is clear from your emails that simply having the strata minutes is not enough. I guess what I am trying to ask you is what are the actual steps in carrying out the due diligence you mentioned in protecting onself from this crazy "condo crisis?"
Thanks again in advance for your help and advice/suggestions.
Regards,
Jo
BTW, we're still only looking in Richmond, Vancouver and wishfully, North Van. |
Our reply:
| Quote: | From: editor <editor>
Subject: Re: from Richmond, BC
To: Jo Beemster
Cc: "editor" <editor>
Received: Sunday, August 31, 2008, 2:38 AM
First, take advice from condo atty as per http://bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1280#1280. There are legal issues involved in bldg inspections - how much of the corporation exactly is to be included in the inspection (not much! not NEARLY enough!) and whether and how the report is warranted. You then need advice INTERPRETING the inspection - figuring out how to apply the information contained in the report against the selling price. This is where evidence of aggressive or laisse-faire inspection/maintenance plans may add or subtract value. Warning: Although strata council minutes may reveal sound management practices, unfortunately, a good strata council is EASILY followed by the typical amateur condo crew, who generally prefer a cheaper, irresponsible, laisse-faire approach at least until they sell. Condo attys should be familiar with one or two quality inspectors and how to interpret the reports and reconcile them with strata minutes.
Ed.
P.S. Watch out for advertisers in B.C. Condo Homeowners Association (CHOA)! Unfortunately, CHOA doesn't monitor them in any way. Nor do they pay attention to members' complaints. We hired an atty who wrote a column (more of an 'infomercial') in their, in our view, laughable newsletter - proved worse than useless. A supposed condo expert who didn't know enough to take us through leak repairs, she excused herself in a month for lack of expertise, then sent us a large bill for what was ultimately wasted time. Be firm when interviewing aspirants. Ask for an estimate for interpreting strata minutes and a building inspection. If you have any trouble, let us know. |
Vancouver Magazine
Rough Housing
The next big shelter crisis hits the 'burbs. Is it as bad as the Leaky Condo debacle? Or worse?
By Frank O'Brien
March, 2004
| Quote: | From the outside, Cloverdale, B.C. looks like another Vancouver suburb riding the upswing of a robust housing market. Which is true enough, unless you happen to be out for a drive with Gary Friend, a third generation Fraser Valley homebuilder. Friend points out the evidence of a different wave, one he fears could be the ruin of his industry: black-market houses. "Everyone knows what is going on," he says, "but nobody can do anything about it."
He's talking about hundreds of detached houses built in suburban Greater Vancouver this year - and thousands since the leaky condo crisis crested five years ago - that are being erected by non-licensed contractors who offer no warranty protection, no worker compensation, no guarantees at all. Should you buy one of these "owner-built" houses and find that something is wrong with it, your only hope will be an expensive court docket assigned to a sceptical prosecutor. (And that's if your insurance isn't made void and your mortgage isn't called in). Your other option, and a much more popular choice: flip the place to an unsuspecting buyer and flee as far away from the fallout as possible.
What it all adds up to, according to Friend and other observers, is a kind of Leaky Condo II for big suburban houses. If that prediction sounds alarmist, what is certain, says Bob Maling, the top cop in British Columbia's Homeowner Protection Office, is that there's "a gapping loophole" in the provincial legislation. And some builders are taking full advantage.
... What's worse is that Maling admits his office - whose motto is "restoring confidence" - has had near zero success in stopping the abusers. In fact, not a single illegal builder has been convicted in five years even though about 10,000 owner-built houses have been identified. A six-month statute of limitations from when the house is occupied is hamstringing Maling and his 34-member staff. Meanwhile it's easy to see the incentive in exploiting the loophole. The math shows that buying and selling an owner-built house in today's real estate market is like hitting the lotto - again and again... Case study: the HPO tracked one house where the owner-builder dodged a cool $120,000 in [various registration and licensing] fees and taxes. Plus he made money on the sale of the house. And then he walked away.
... In B.C. home builder warranty cases must go to Crown Counsel, which means there has to be a fairly solid case for conviction. This differs from Ontario, where legislation allows the Ontario New Home Warranty Program to lay charges and prosecute cases without Crown Counsel being involved. A Lindsay, Ontario builder caught without warranty coverage was recently sentenced to six months in jail on each of two counts. In B.C. all but one of the cases Mailing and his team have presented to Crown Counsel have quietly died.
... What about the Maple Ridge homebuyers who, upon hiring Ed Witzke - a veteran building inspector among the first to blow the whistle on leaky condos a decade ago - discovered that workers had actually defecated between the wall studs before they put the Gyprock up? . (Says Witzke, "The house stank to high heaven, and it had mechanical and electrical problems as well.") They did what most end up forced to do: look after the repairs and costs themselves. (emphasis added) (-- pgs. 25-27) |
| Quote: | | But when pricey licensing and mandatory warranty rules kicked in for contractors, the suburbs appeared to be filled with an inordinate number of handymen. The number of owner-built houses soared, according to Maling, a former Ontario warranty provider and now acting chief executive officer of the HPO. This year, he said, they will represent at least 35 per cent of the 12,000 new houses built in the province. In parts of Surrey, it is closer to 50 percent; the bulk of the worst examples are in the Fraser Valley and the Lower Mainland, according to HPO officials. (-- p. 26) |
| Quote: | So much for the CBC Radio Early Edition not-so-smart 'Get Smart' series of March, 2006, which includes a report by Salma Nurmohamed asserting that Valley homes are now in the clear of leaky condo issues.
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Link to this entry
http://www.bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1390#1390
Last edited by editor on Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:47 pm; edited 9 times in total |
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editor
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Dec 2003
Posts: 878
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| Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Any tips on how to spot condo mismanagement?
| Quote: | From: Jean
To: <editor>
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:03 PM
Subject: How to find out about bad management in condos
How to find out about bad management in condos? I don`t want to rush into anything so I was hoping you could give me some ideas as to what to avoid. Any help appreciated.
Thank you very much.
Regards, Jean |
Our reply:
| Quote: | From: "editor" <editor>
To: Jean>
Cc: "editor" <editor>
Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: How to find out about bad management in condos
By reviewing the material listed here at our Watchdog Forum under How to Buy a Condo and Avoid a Leaker.
Good luck. You'll need it!
Ed. |
Link to this entry
http://www.bccondos.ca/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1548#1548 |
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